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2d · 28
Bye bye bunny
Hey everyone (aka the like 5 ppl who matter to me on this app)

I'm taking a hiatus from life for a bit.

I'm being admitted (partially by choice) to a psychiatric ward.

Do not worry about me, I will be ok.

I just need a little extra help after everything that has happened.

I'll post something when I can come back

Be safe.

Stay gold, 🌙

Yours truely,

Liam, (Host of the Blue Bottle System)
Cya nerds.
In case we don't meet
For a very long while
I'm glad the last thing I did
Was surprise you and smile

In case I am gone
And I can't come back
You'll make a new friend
Make up for what I lack

In case I go away
And I cannot go home
Ill know now that you have someone
You aren't alone

In case I don't see you
Pretend that you do
I ruined my life
And I hurt you too.

In case I never see you again,
Good afternoon, Good evening, and Good night.
Guess who's getting hospitalized?

I wish I could make it all better 🌙
The burgundy lighting
Is oh so exciting
I'm lush and inviting
For all to see
My body is moving
The dance Im resuming
Cigarette smoke is pluming
Look at me

I dance for hours
Until early hours
For higher powers
Whom pay for me

To leech off my fleet and to preach on deciet to forgive or forget I don't know

The threat is consuming
You hate me? Well sue me
I don't give a **** about what you please
If you were halfway decent
I'd let you get even
In light of the recent events

But I'm just a body
Meat to be discarded
I am not your Bunny
And I am not Holly
I went into your party
Didn't think anything of your snacks
I ate anything you gave me
But then it came to the cakes

Your chocolate cupcakes were delicious
"To die for"
Devine

I guess my body took it literally.

I choked
You started laughing
"Was it funny?"

I am crying
Throwing up
Scratching til my skin bleeds

You think I'm being dramatic

Can't you see??
Your cupcakes are killing me.

When I am finally able to find my mom I have no time

And my vision is blank

I don't remember the last time I ate a cupcake.
I always throw them up now.
Story time:
When I was 11 I went to a birthday party with my friend. Her mom had been informed I was allergic to coconut.
Her excuse after I almost died eating a coconut oil filled cake?
"She should know better, besides I didn't put real coconut in"
Coconut oil kills
2d · 52
Lost
People only look for what has been lost, when they remember it is missing
Every time I see your eyes
I die a little bit inside
When it was time to say goodbye
I played in bed and began to cry.
We are starlight, bright yellow and holly berries.
Winter, skating, and snow angels.
We are sunflowers, dark chocolate and raspberries.
Police TV shows and Ao3 novels
We are Forrests and babbling brooks
Long winding walks and hair never put up
We are the scent of chrysanthemums and fresh linen, old books and sun
We are daisies and figure skating
Homemade cookies and warm baths
We are water colour and raccoons, collages, song writing and pretty rocks.
We are wooden beads, belt chains and flowery skirts.
Eyeliner and curls, cuts and burns
We are all that we can be.
Based off the lovely Lyle's poem "All That I Am"
4d · 30
Sleepovers
I came to your house that day
My first sleepover since that may
My mom was upset
But let me stay
I slept over at your house that day.

We played games on pixilated screens,
You weren't upset when I accidently screamed.
Your dad called me by my name, and I almost cried
Your mom hugged me and my tears dried.

Your brother was sweet, one of a kind
You sat there stuck
Trapped in your mind
I pulled you into me
We cried

You told me you were selfish
I didn't think so
I don't

We told each other nearly everything
Our sadness and woe
I wish I had told you everything
Before she made me go

You showed me your songs
Your sweet poems
Your stories
I loved to listen to you

Then you stopped talking.
Asleep
While I lie silent
Holding your shaking body

I don't know if you remember that night
You had a panic attack
I held you while you cried
You told me I was like her
And I think inside I had died

We aren't allowed to have sleepovers
I keep getting myself in trouble
I miss your house and your welcoming family
I miss your smell and your snuggles.

I hope that you aren't mad at me
I wish I could re do it all
I hope that your happy
I wait for this fall
I wrote this a while ago and left it in drafts
I didn't think I'd want him to see it
I'm not upset with you moon, I love you
It was the night of the concert
My very first one
My lips were cracking
From being bitten and chewed on

I was excited, you were too
You loved the band
And I loved you

You lent me the ChapStick
It smelt like ****
It tasted like you
It filled me with need

Need to be closer
To hold you
To taste you
Gods you tasted good.

I kept it
I'm not sure why
Maybe I forgot
Or my lips were still dry

Maybe it was conscious
I stole the **** thing
It tasted like you
I ignored the sting

We realized our feelings
You're my best and closest friend
I dont have that ChapStick
I lost it in the end

It smelled like ****
Tasted like you
I hope you still know hon
I love you too.
I really with I still had it, it was my favorite.
From the drafts again :(
6d · 50
I wait for you
I know a boy who sits under the bridge at night
Looking dead inside such a gangly sight
He told me he wishes he could sleep but it never comes,
And the bridge at night is where he runs
"Its nothing new..."

I wait for you.

I know a kid that smokes and cries in their sleep
They get high and then cry themselves to sleep
Told them "you should quit or you'll never heal"
He said "I hope that one day I can feel real"
"Its what I do..."

I wait for you.
Based on Alex g's "I wait for you"
Hello poets,

My name is sunny, and I'd very much like to propose to all of you:

A Challenge.

It is quite a simple one really, I want to see just how many are willing to help me.

Recently I've found out of a group of poets that are using AI to create their "art" for them.
I won't give names unless it continues to worsen. They know whom they are.

We cannot stand for this.

AI is not art, its thievery, its not creative, its lazy, it is awful.

Poets, true poets, their words come from heart and soul, their voices are powerful. It disgusts me that AI is taking away the magic that drew me to poetry in the first place.

That's why I ask of you, true poets, to create. I challenge you to make a poem that damns AI even farther, using the #AISucks .

I encourage any and all of you whom see a poem in the challenge to repost, heart, and spread the word.

And if you see any other "poets" using AI, please report them. That isn't creating, its borderline stealing.

Thank you all, and I wish you the best of luck.
Thank you for reading, and I hope you'll take the challenge.
Garbs woven of silken stars and leather sewn in with gold
Stories of the past and future stories new and old
Stories tell of green laiden pastures those stories never told

I'd been said to rest but why shouldn't I go out and put it to the test
A dress, stitched with star dust, comet on my neck
I will go out there.

I cannot stay up here.

Gardens evergreen and fields lain with soil I thought that I would be keen
But now the fields are empty, barren, and the ravens scream.

I run home to the moon and sky begging to come home
But when I attempted to return
My comet was gone

Et tu, Domine, iam non es sacer.
my words are not coming from my head or my mouth, my brain or my ears, they don't spawn from my wondrous imagination or from my inspiration. they do not form from beautiful imagery, nor are they created in image of any person. my poems are not forged with tender love and care that others are, they are not tended to, edited, revised.

my words are not from the heart, they are not pumped through my body to my mind, my words are not from the heart or its binds. my poems are not formed of love and emotion they are not made with the same ideas others are.

my words come from the ink that pours down my wrists and thighs that were made in mutilation. a work of "art" through self deprication. my poems come from the hurt, the pain that i so obviously crave and create. my words and poems are my blood. my bond. my ties to worldly connections.
this is not your kind of poetry, It is mine; and it bleeds.
#sh
i cant breathe, i cant think
i cant skate, because the rink
its too warm
melting ice
my one solace
my one vice
i cant freeze
freeze my brain
lose myself in the music
get lost in the pain
the sting of the cold
my movements bold
i cant sing
i cant swing
move my body
i cant move
i cant think
May 16 · 185
dont forget the colors
red is for love, its filled with hate
orange is anxiety, an unoptimistic trait
yellow is decaying, rotting quickly
green is selfish and sickly
blue is not only sad, but melancholy
purple is the deep bruising, form your unfortunate folly
white is the cabinet, stained red with hate
brown is the decay that yellow can make
black and blue is her face from his selfishness
purple she turned, when she lost to the sickness.
May 13 · 145
I write about you a lot.
For every one of your tragedies
I will write happy endings

For every one of your bad days
I will help make good ones

For every one of your break downs
I will be there to pick you up

For every skipped meal
I will treat you to comfort

For every forgotten memory
I will make new ones with you

For every forgotten line
A daisy for the courage to try

For every tear shed
A smile shared

For every scar
A star

You are gold
And I, yellow.
Love you big dawg, thanks for everything.
May 12 · 150
do you ever think of me?
i think about you all the time
you always manage to cross my mind
in the dark
at school
with my mom
with bee
i see you everywhere
i am always reminded
you did not love me
you didnt really get to know me
and i know you will never see this
i know you wouldnt care
you thinking of me every now and then
is not reward
but entirely painful.
about multiple people
May 2 · 340
Publication
I don't think a single thing could bring me down from my high.
The rush of learning, I'm going to be seen!
Published
Known
Sure only a select few may even care,
But I do.
That's what matters to me.
I'm going to be a published writer in "A celebration of poets!"
my poem, "What makes a poet?" made it in! i havent felt this rush in a long time :)
May 2 · 119
Fourteen (again)
fourteen*

Woe is the child
That turns 14
When life was already lived
Before he was keen.

Woe is the soul whom
When asked why he cries
He shuts down
Shuts up
And rolls his eyes.

Woe is the boy
Turning 14
Scared to lose himself
Nowhere to be seen.

I see you.
I hear you.
I love you too.
But I'm afraid to lose you
Far too soon.

Yours, Vivere.
Love you, Mori.
May 2 · 237
Why do you cry?
Why do you cry?
Isn't this what you wanted?
To be all by yourself again?
No?
Then why did you push everyone away?

Why didn't you ask them to stay?

Stupid rabbit.

He doesn't want you to cling anymore.

Let him love other people.

Let him go.
May 2 · 49
Him
Him
I don't think you know
Just how much
I wish you would look at me
How you look at them
How you looked at him.
I wait for your poems daily
Your notes of absolute gold
And I wish
On every 11:11
For you
I'm not doing great without him, I miss my silly star :(
May 1 · 158
Blood and water
Blood runs thicker than water
Blood runs thicker than water
Blood runs thicker than water

Yet both are the same if you earn her trust.

I am still her daughter
I still love my father
The truth couldn't be farther

And I'll still be here when the fences rust.

My love is thicker than water
My love is stronger than blood
My love could never be stronger

I am the last handprint you'll see in the dust.
People often confuse that saying
Blood runs thicker than water.
Water means bonds shared by the womb.
Blood is bond shared by battles through life.
You have no worries yet, they've only just begun.
I know you're scared, worried, anxious.
But I promise you'll be fine.
Yes its bad as they say
High schoolers do ****.
But they have to grow up one day.
Keep your chin up.
Don't be shy.
Stand tall, take pride.
Do an after school activity
Join a club, go to games
Make friends you'll spend life with.
Trust me, it pays.
Don't pretend to be something you aren't
Never stop learning
Do your work, but don't let it consume you.
Ask. For. Help.
They want you to pass.
I'm proud of you.
Don't do drugs, or alcohol.
Seniors don't want to be friends with you, and avoid dating people older than you in highschool.
Don't have ***. Trust me.
Study hard but don't over work.
You may have been cool, but no one likes someone that's rude and cool people are only cool in highschool. Better to be nice.
Money isn't a problem for now, get that job junior year.
Take advantage of extra credit.
Have fun with your first year.
Drama isn't cool or cute, stay out of it.
Don't bother with lockers, just keep a book bag.
Take notes.
Stay away from fights.
You won't be stuck forever.
People will make fun of you because your younger, but ignore them. They were young once too.
Write future you letters, they'll be cringe and funny to laugh at later :)
Most importantly, your grades do matter, but so does your mental health.
Its OK to take breaks and ask for help.
Stay safe freshies.
Advice to the future freshman.
GOOD LUCK!!!
Apr 30 · 124
I saw a dog
I saw a dog
He reminded me of you
He walked the same, would've talked the same
An he had red ish hair too.
He reminded me to Text you
I hope I made you laugh
You have all of your limbs
Of one he had only half.
He looked over
He smiled
I swear, I promise its true
I saw a dog the other day
He reminded me of you
For him
Apr 29 · 77
that feeling.
that feeling.
you know the one.
all emotion is drained of your body and all worth is ****** away.
When you're so numb you can't be real, yet you feel every little thing that grazes your skin.
you feel tired, yet so overwhelmed and awake
and it hurts.
you cant escape
and it hurts.
that feeling of overwhelming upsetting forgetting and regretting.
your mind isnt your own, yet your body is undeniably so.
you cant even decode your own thoughts, for the mess they spew out is only to be just that, a mess.
your words come out as delirium, your heart racing and genuinely not functioning
everything
everywhere all at once.
like you have no mouth, yet must scream
have no control
incessantly and unequivocally continuous
that visceral, inexplicable feeling remaining, restraining
not just disorder, complete discord, chaos, absolute anarchy
inside the mind
and again this body remained still.

you couldn't possibly imagine could you?
of course not.
going through an episode
If you were to ask her friends what she'd say
They'd reply "I'm going to conquer the world today."
not conquer as to take over, more as to overcome
she wanted to save the worlds, rid them of all ****.

When she is manic, she tends not to panic, realities altered and all thoughts vanish.
She would look at you and happily say,
"I want to conquer the world someday."

She walks with a bounce, her steps all over the place
a plastered smile never leaving her face.
Her music is loud, revolting, and proud.
Her smile is contagious, her mood seemingly outrageous.

Risking everything, she lets them in, protection made out a sin.
A single mistake, is all it could take, and it would be over.
She should panic.
But she doesn't, for she is manic.

She smiles at you, lazy eyes.
The world leaving her mind with no goodbyes.
She smiles at you and you know what she'll say;

"I conquered the world today."
Apr 29 · 56
Whats on your mind?
I don't often tell the truth
About what's inside me head
Though I lacked the skill in youth
I wished I'd end up dead.

All the voices deep inside
Echo throughout my brain
If the truth were not to hide
You may call me insane.

I used to be a smiley girl, happy all the time
Then you came into my world, and sold it for a dime.

Now I lie about my feelings, my thoughts, and all my pain
Because I was taught that I should never
Say what's going on inside my brain.

My mind rushes to the beat of the fastest drum
Unfortunately I'm afraid of what I have become.
I sometimes catch myself wondering
My thoughts an endless cycle
Self deprication
Sleep deprivation
Without mediation
I look at her and I feel nothing
My my body is at an odds
Begging to feel something
I swear to any and all gods
There is something wrong with me.
She looks at me and laughs
Saying how I look like I want to die
I laugh too
It isn't funny because its hilarious
Its funny because its true.
I don't smell of dead flowers
I smell of the rot I was raised in
All I am now
Is ruin.
I cannot muster the strength to look you in the eyes
To be tell you my lies
Bringing about my demise
My body is falling apart
Deteriorated
And you are angry.
You are upset at the world
Your future taken just as mine was
I have absolutely no idea
I am afraid.
My sleep schedual is ****** up
No. Worse than that.
She loved you in every single one, just not ours.
She cared for me once in all my life when it benefitted her.
And cast you out when it was convenient to save you.
She loved us in all but one.
And we got the shortest straw...
Apr 22 · 280
he was a poet...
his words tangled into his heart, pulling and strangling his blood.
the ink would spew through his eyes, and when he got his hands on paper,
haunting tales of sweet creatures and punishment from devinity.
his stories meant more then anything they taught us to learn.
his words were the things that he left behind.
Apr 21 · 90
a sleight of hand
cards slip up the sleeves
the red reflecting only for a moment
the soft glowing of pale white
and the deep crimson marring it.
pull a trick
and only the people who know themselves
how the trick is pulled
will ever know you did it again.
this isnt about a magic trick.
#sh
Apr 21 · 937
i envy the stars
i envy the stars,
the way you would stare at them and smile
how you looked so longingly toward them
you wanted to join them
and then you tried.
in your trying, you did not reach them.
you stayed here, on this rotting rock, stuck with me.
your smile has gone away forever. you dont laugh anymore.

i wish i had never let you envy me.
like i envy you
and envy the great shining lights that surround us.
Shadows waltzing across my ceiling never seem to fear the future.
They come when called, enthusiastically enthralled.
They kiss and trail
Every night without fail

My frail body lays awake
I lie and ache
Fear a constant, leering foe.
I yearn to be the soft, sweet 6 year old.
She was scared and alone
But she had been safe.

The shadows have no worldly fears
Their care is only the forever dance of night
When they intertwine
Together
Instil fear into the hearts of young
And bring hope to the future generation
come one come all
to see the apathy
to witness tragedy
the fame and fortune
the game ends in june
the name died too soon

all those
olden titles
tales of the late
soft spoke mysteries
entitled histories
forgoten stories
because of you

burnt to the ground
yet your empire grew
you left behind a trail
how we never knew
your secrets spilt
your identites spew

gilded ashes
paved the way
you taught us to follw
not to stray
every command
every lie
we let it pass
let you get by

an unwritten song
never to be sung
your entire world
the peirced lung
your forgetting friends
youre forgotten

youre rotten.
i do not support wilbur soot or any of his actions. this was written to convey the hurt i felt, and still feel knowing how awful he truely was
Apr 14 · 1.8k
Untitled
everything is changing.
youve changed.

you dont talk to me now.
i cry over you every night.

sometimes i wonder if you think about me
as much as i think about you.

then i remember
you left me because it hurts

i was too much like Her.

and you replaced me.

that hurt the most.
Apr 14 · 128
spiral
my insistence on existence is getting out of hand
the walls are shaking
ground is breaking
its getting hard to stand
i tried talking to the glass, staring into a new land
the mirror is cracking
voices stacking
echoing demands

i wrote a thesis on my spiral
and signed it in my blood
filed it under "WHAT THE HELL"
and watched it sink into the mud
people seem to like me
tell me i seem vague
i take it as a compliment
then turn another page.
Apr 14 · 101
protector
i am the strength, the saftey, the fear.
i stay close, always near.
the one they call when things go wrong
the silence hurts, their screams a song.
the body aches, battered bruised
couldve been simple, had he refused
you
all those nights ago.
but he didnt know.
i keep them alive.
let the body thrive.
system poems part 1
there was an honest man. a good man. a story teller.
he worked in the library, taught children to read, he was a kind man, a great fella.

well "once upon a time" was his motto, his stories always bled into the light.
he went to bed as it got darker, knowing he had done his stories right.

"Nevermorre calls upon you, Storyteller." called the queen of that land.
he had to leave this era, he hoped theyd understand.

as the kind, gentle man left our world, he left a story for the children to be unfurled.
the story of Nevermorre, the friends of the past, the chimer of futures, the words of the last, the darkness of sorrow, the swirling of shame, those who read, did not return quite the same...

so quiet now young ones, im here to tell
the story of Nevermorre, is mine as well.
losely based on a yaelokre song, narnia, and the book the land of stories, i want to create a world of my own and fill it with characters widely known.
Apr 8 · 416
surround me
when you were close
your voice would drown me
your hurtful words
the silence crowns me
i stayed quite because i knew
thats the only way i would keep you
i wept
i barely slept
i stayed awake
every stupid decision id make
i did it for you
for your praise
your time
i wish youd stayed
called us "mine"
for an old abuser
Apr 2 · 453
the truth
i cant even lie I was going to **** myself last night
You pulled me from my head and made everything all right.
You made my life make sense, put everything in line,
I laid back down again, everything seemed fine.

today I went through motions, tired and devoid of emotions
my brain was wrongly wired, it was you that i admired.
I wish you could've helped me
I wish you had known.
set my stupid mind free, all my worries flown.
i thought i was getting better...
Mar 31 · 88
Title
a doe wandered into the clear path of the starry forest. three shots had rung out.
a buck lay flat on the clovers and tall grass.
a fawn beside him pawing the ground.
three frogs hopping in the trees.
down down down.
the doe lay beside the fawn as it denied the inevitable, inescapable truth.
he was gone.
she was here.
and the frogs sang a sappy tune.
"ohhh cry out sweet sorrow, the dragonflies skitter away! the cats are out and the mice are at play. whistle sour melodies and harmonious truth, the deer have crossed over, behind stayed their youth."
the young doe shooed away the silly frogs before the hunters heard.
poor fawn.
no mama in sight.
three deer and three frogs. (this has a deeper meaning to be interpreted.)
Mar 27 · 183
Oh.
Oh.
"Oh"
that is the sound I made when you told me you liked me
the sound I made when you asked me out
when you said "I love you"
when you touched me
when you said you felt i was distant
when you left me
when you ripped my heart into a million pieces and left me for dead
when you told me you were getting back with him
when you told me he was so much better
when he left you
when you stopped talking
when you left

you didnt like me. you liked the idea of being liked, loved.
you knew i was a rebound.
You said "I hate you" and meant it, but "I love you" felt fake
you felt like him. i hate you for that.
i was closer to you than anyone. i left everyone for you.
you chose to leave
you hurt me
god it hurt.
i told you i was proud of you and him.
he finally realized how awful you were.
your silence filled my ears
and then you were gone.
F
Mar 27 · 375
Thursday's child
Thursday's child has far to go.
a child borne
of beauty and grace
so much more
a pretty face
her mind usually still
calm
is wild
racing
she fights
not only to survive
to live
to love
for her right
to be a human

Thursday's child has a voice
Thursday's child made a choice
to many a persons dismay
Thursday's child decides
to stay

Thursday's child
not full of woe
unfortunately
still far to go
19 days left
Mar 26 · 75
I can fly
if i were to close my eyes
take away the pain
i could fly
like a bird
not a plane
id reach the moon
the stars
the sky
i close my eyes
and i can fly
fly
Mar 26 · 307
Dear dad.
Dear dad,

when you left, it broke mommy.
you hurt her
an then as soon as she tried to get better you tried to take me away
you hurt me deeply too you know
not only me
not only her
you hurt nana, poi.
you hurt us all
as soon as i was "old enough" i was used
and you defended your brother
because of course you did.
you chose him over me
i hate you.

i dont really.
i dont.
i love you
because im supposed to.

Love,
Holly.
a letter to my dad
Mar 26 · 341
dear mom.
dear mom,

when i was born to a 16 year old, do you think it was my plan to hurt you? to ruin you? i made your life hell, i know. but this was out of my control.
mommy i love you
mommy look im reading
look how smart i am
look how good i am
look how nice i am
look how kind i am
see how tired i am
see how lonely i am
how alone
how sickly
mommy why wont you answer me
have i done something wrong?
i did everything for you.
no matter how hard i tried it was never enough.
when daddy came back to get me
you fought
you genuinely loved me
and i never wanted to see him
i loved you
daddy had left
hurt me
hurt you
but as soon as you won
didnt you cry?
wish i had been taken?
i remember that night you prayed to god for me to go away
how i was hurting you
you were my age when you had me
nearly an adult
adult enough to go to that party
to go find your man friend
to lie and say you coud drink
but what happened?
daddy forgot he hated condoms.
forgot he didnt like consent
yet it was my faut after
im sorry mommy
im sorry i wasnt good enough.
fast forward me 2019
taking it out on my grades and never happy
put on a mask for the parents and bottle up my sorrow study and work til i see the light of tomorrow
suddenly im 13
hardly 3 days clean
picking up scraps and taking pills i cant seem
to pronounce the names of
my grades are slipping
my life crumbling
im turning fifteen in 3 weeks
its like you dont even know me.
like you kept having kids to fil the void
stopl hurting me
i didnt deserve it
i was always good
i did everything to make you happy

love,
Holly
a letter to my mom
Mar 26 · 171
anachronistic
a girl
oddity
out of time
wrong place
no reason
no rhyme
wasting space
a rich commodity
unfurl
was i born in the wrong time?
Mar 18 · 291
regress
some people will
tell you
to act your age

a being
who is ageless
in a temporary body

crying
because
she got lost

some can
go back
in time

to a place in their mind
when life was easy
when it didnt hurt

when they were happy
having a bit of a rough patch
poketry is cheaper than therapy
cuz im broke
dear reader
youve been up for hours
you seem so tired.
staring silently while you're crawling quietly tracing reality quickly devouring all of the star dust beyond.
you slip violently
ducking beneath rabbit holes and roots
the water rushing up to meet you
a harsh reality greets you.
fresh palm air ghosting through thine whispers of hair and the seagulls they blare a snappy tune
a cookie to grow
a potion to shrink
honestly a story
to make you think
nonsense!
you cry you bemoan you scream
where are the jokes
there wasnt meant to be any
it was ment to have a point
to make people think
the end is never the end is never the end
your twisted mind starts bickering
two cheshire cats? tweedle dee tweedle doo
tick tock
stop that clock
the small blue bunny runs far away
children with screens
implanted in their tummies
oh so yummy
so delicious
so impure
the rapture of the gods
the magic of beyond
sweet candy houses
tall angry mouses
a dream or reality
who is to say
forced joliety
joy
thats my policy
:)
crazed ramblings of a mad man?
or a code to be cracked by literate scholars?
id rather leave my nonsense everywhere for normals to make sense of
the rules do tend to change here
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